A local columnist ruminated on this usage in today’s paper. The inciting incident took place in an upscale restaurant: a young waiter greeted an elderly married couple with, “Hey, guys.” The woman was not visibly offended. Nevertheless, the columnist wondered how the term “guys” became unisex.
I thought: "Hey, I'd alert the Lexical Elitists. Those guys will have the answer!" ;o)
I thought: "Hey, I'd alert the Lexical Elitists. Those guys will have the answer!" ;o)
posted by:
|
Boca Raton
|
-
Re: “Hey, guys.”
Tue, January 15, 2008 - 2:39 PMI think in singular one would say guy or gal, but guys for a mixed group. Although I can't imagine using it as a server in an upscale restaurant. I think "Sir and Madam" would be more fitting.
I've always been curious about "dude." There really is no feminine counterpart, is there?
-
-
Re: “Hey, guys.”
Tue, January 15, 2008 - 4:47 PM"Dudette" or "Betty" would be the female counterpart from skater culture which is where "dude" came out of. Not sure if it's connected to the whole cowboy "dude ranch" thing or how it came into skater (and punk and grunge culture). -
-
Re: “Hey, guys.”
Tue, January 15, 2008 - 4:53 PMI thought "dude" originally came out of the surfer scene, then migrated to skating and snowboarding, etc. Great, now I can't stop picturing Sean Penn in that teen movie.... Dude, my dad's got an awesome set of tools.
-
-
Re: “Hey, guys.”
Tue, January 15, 2008 - 6:01 PMHeather - You're right about the surfer thing, the skater and surfer scene were one and the same in the early days. I think it migrated east via skaters. One surfer thing that always creeps me out for some reason is the white guy "brah" thing (for "brother" or "bro"). I don't know why but it really does creep me out! -
-
Re: “Hey, guys.”
Tue, January 15, 2008 - 7:52 PMFrom Etymology Online:
DUDE (1883), "fastidious man," New York City slang of unknown origin. The vogue word of 1883, originally used in ref. to the devotees of the "aesthetic" craze, later applied to city slickers, especially Easterners vacationing in the West (dude ranch first recorded 1921). Surfer slang application to any male is first recorded c.1970. Female form dudine (1883) has precedence over dudess (1885).
This jives with my understanding of the word. As a child of the Fifties, I heard the word used often on TV westerns in reference to city slickers. I have not, however, heard either "dudine" or "dudess." I think I'll stick with "dudette." -
-
Re: “Hey, guys.”
Tue, January 15, 2008 - 9:26 PMCool, thanks Earline :-) It's quite entertaining to know that "dude" went from meaning "fastidious man" to being a surfer/skater/stoner term... I love how words can morph as they travel through time!
-
-
-
-
-
-
Re: “Hey, guys.”
Thu, January 17, 2008 - 6:20 PMuhh.
using the masculine pronoun to refer to males AND females
(any group that includes males, regardless of female presence or proportion)
is consistent across many languages...
get it?
this linguistic practice has origins in the same cultural notions as the 'male as norm' paradigm of modern western medicine...
it's a one-drop rule, for genders...
and it's fkkn ancient, btw...
it's nothing new or recent. -
-
Re: “Hey, guys.”
Fri, January 18, 2008 - 7:27 AMj nilambari - Good observation :-)
-
Re: “Hey, guys.”
Fri, January 18, 2008 - 8:35 AM>>>>>>>>>using the masculine pronoun to refer to males AND females
(any group that includes males, regardless of female presence or proportion)
is consistent across many languages... <<<<<<<
But "guys" isn't *the* masculine pronoun. "He" is. A woman who doesn't object to being called "one of the guys" might well object to being called "him"!
-
Re: “Hey, guys.”
Fri, January 18, 2008 - 9:25 AM"using the masculine pronoun to refer to males AND females
(any group that includes males, regardless of female presence or proportion)
is consistent across many languages..."
hmmm.... tries this on for size, in a similar social context:
German: "Leute, schaut mal her!" - nope, although "Freunde, schaut mal her" passes muster.
French: "Les amis, regardez!" passes muster until the blur between 'amis' and 'amies' is taken into account. (*)
Italian: "Amici!" - same plural for amico and amica, I believe, so not clear cut.
Japanese: "Minna-san!" - asexual.
Spanish: "Amigos!" - yes, clearly follows the rule in this case.
I'd say that in that straw poll, for the equivalent of 'guys' it's not conclusive. But of course, you are right in other contexts: the 'male-as-norm' short-cut in languages does appear in several of those languages when talking about groups of people: "die Ärzte" in spite of the existence of "Ärztin", for example.
(*) in French, it's worse than ambiguous - you can talk of a group of men in the feminine form, if you call them 'personnes'. -
-
Re: “Hey, guys.”
Fri, January 18, 2008 - 9:35 AMmichael - On the other hand, I think it does kind of point to sexism (in English cultures anyway) if one thinks of how most guys would react to being called "ladies" or "gals" when part of a mixed group. The French equivalent to "guys" is "gars", which is also masculine so to equate amis/friends with "guys" is a bit off in terms of being an accurate translation..."friends" being gender neutral in English too :-) In French, mixed groups tend to be referred to in the masculine as well ("ils"). -
-
Re: “Hey, guys.”
Fri, January 18, 2008 - 12:33 PMThanks for the reminder on 'gars', it is indeed closer. On the third hand, though, I woudn't say 'hé, les gars' to a mixed group the way I might say 'hey, guys'. Guys and gals: gars et garces? ... perhaps "y'all" ;-) But then, thank goodness, I'm not a translator ;-) -
-
Re: “Hey, guys.”
Fri, January 18, 2008 - 12:41 PMmichael - In Quebec it's the equivalent of "guys" and used that way. I've never, ever, heard "gar and garces" used by a Quebecois *or* someone from France. Mainly because "garce" means "bitch" and is considered an insult! (So it probably *is* a good thing you're not doing French/English translations! ;-) Just like "guys', the more specific meaning of "les gars" is male but it's used for mixed groups. After all, it's sort of a slang and informal term in both languages. -
-
Re: “Hey, guys.”
Sat, January 19, 2008 - 12:20 AMFifi - must be more Quebec then, because here in France, I haven't heard a mixed group called 'gars' all that much - that expression brings to mind a bunch of Pastis-sipping construction workers in Marcel T-shirts ;)
Oh, and the 'gars et garces' was toungue-in-cheek - I'm perfectly aware of the meaning of garces, but can't think of an analogue to gals in French ( 'les filles' comes to mind) that isn't in some way demeaning. As you say, good thing I'm not a translator ;) -
-
Re: “Hey, guys.”
Sat, January 19, 2008 - 7:06 AMmichael - No doubt it's more Quebecois and ghetto. I've heard it used in French hip hop too so it probably is more associated with slang. It's considered slang here in Quebec too. Though "guys" is really pretty slang and informal in English too.
It's hard to see tongues in cheeks online! Thanks for poking it out for me ;-)
-
-
-
Re: “Hey, guys.”
Fri, January 18, 2008 - 12:44 PMmichael - Also, even in English, "guys" isn't automatically friendly. "Those guys are idiots" for instance. It's kind of neutral in a way that "garces" most definitely isn't!
-
-
-
-
-
Re: “Hey, guys.”
Fri, January 18, 2008 - 2:32 PMinteresting thread guys! :P
For the record, I personally use dude all the time when addressing females, but primarily as an exclamation. "Dude, I can totally see your bra through that top!" -
-
Re: “Hey, guys.”
Fri, January 18, 2008 - 2:45 PMSteph (hehe, figured I'd go with the gender unspecific!), I do this sometimes too but I prefer the equally punk rock "lady". So do some of my other female friends. I don't really care that much to be honest, simply because what people call me doesn't define who I am. I mean, guys will call you a "garce" in a heartbeat if you don't respond to their pedestrian sexual overtures. For me, part of being a feminist has *always* been about not being defined by other people's labels or expectations. But then, I'm an "equal but different" feminist not a "we're all the same" feminist. I can kick someone's ass while wearing a pink dress and stilettos, if need be. Stilettos, they make a good weapon and earned their name honestly ;-) -
-
Re: “Hey, guys.”
Fri, January 18, 2008 - 2:49 PMAlso, being a lexical elitist I find it stunningly retarded when people try to make words that sound like they refer to gender but don't actually "politically correct". I also find things like actresses calling themselves "actors" to be pandering to sexism in an odd way. It basically implies that women who act just aren't as good if they're called "actresses". I mean, talentless himbos get to be called "actors" so it's hardly a designation of talent!
-
Re: “Hey, guys.”
Mon, January 21, 2008 - 1:42 PM"Stilettos, they make a good weapon and earned their name honestly "
What, you mean they have triangular blades and they're made for thrusting through chain-mail? Or is that the modern kind of stiletto, with a blade that springs out the front. (Silly me, I always thought they'd be better for modified hammer attacks.) If they'd made shoes like that in the '70s, I'd still be wearing platforms. -
-
Re: “Hey, guys.”
Mon, January 21, 2008 - 1:53 PMGereg - I was thinking the modern kind, but thanks for the cool info on the originals! A good stiletto shoe, with metal tips (not the plastic ones) could easily puncture flesh or take an eye out. Not that I've actually had to ever resort to that but I know one or two women who have used their pointy shoes effectively defensively. -
-
Re: “Hey, guys.”
Mon, January 21, 2008 - 4:17 PMSorry to hear they needed to; glad to hear they managed it effectively.
-
Re: “Hey, guys.”
Mon, January 21, 2008 - 11:44 PM"A good stiletto shoe, with metal tip"
Brings to mind the poison-spiked shoe of Romanova in the old James Bond "From Russia with love". Ouch!
-
-
-
-
