Advertisement
Anyone who is "lexically elite" has encountered this conundrum, and I'm curious what you all do about it/with it/when in it.
Consider "forte" in the following sentence.
"She is an accomplished singer of many styles, but Torchsongs are truly her FORTE".
Most of those who are truly lexically elite know that "forte" here, is pronounced "fort" like that building in teh old west where Indians supposedly raided... However, the vast majority of Americans believe the correct pronunciation of the term is "for-tay". This is so prevalent in our society, that educated people will often dismiss you as *ill-educated*, if you "mis" pronounce it as "fort". Several books I've read, suggest that you keep in mind your own "image" and what your goals are, when using this term, cause people love to say "you illiterate fool, it's for-tay".
So my question is "What are lexical elitists to do?" Personally, when i'm in an academic setting I pronounce it correctly, but if I'm in a court room, trying to explain something about Native Cultures to a jury, or if I'm talking to business people trying to get money for some pet project, i'm likely to use "fortay" just cause i don't want to prejudice people against the argument I'm presenting.
just curious what a "good ol' elitist" aught to do. :-)
Consider "forte" in the following sentence.
"She is an accomplished singer of many styles, but Torchsongs are truly her FORTE".
Most of those who are truly lexically elite know that "forte" here, is pronounced "fort" like that building in teh old west where Indians supposedly raided... However, the vast majority of Americans believe the correct pronunciation of the term is "for-tay". This is so prevalent in our society, that educated people will often dismiss you as *ill-educated*, if you "mis" pronounce it as "fort". Several books I've read, suggest that you keep in mind your own "image" and what your goals are, when using this term, cause people love to say "you illiterate fool, it's for-tay".
So my question is "What are lexical elitists to do?" Personally, when i'm in an academic setting I pronounce it correctly, but if I'm in a court room, trying to explain something about Native Cultures to a jury, or if I'm talking to business people trying to get money for some pet project, i'm likely to use "fortay" just cause i don't want to prejudice people against the argument I'm presenting.
just curious what a "good ol' elitist" aught to do. :-)
Advertisement
Advertisement
-
Re: Forte as fort or for-tay
Wed, February 7, 2007 - 5:11 AMI tend to use the same rule as in writing - if something doesn't sound right, choose another word or phrase. Usually, I just say "specialty" or something equally bland in speaking.
Years ago, I had a boss who properly pronounced it "fort" and it was always a bit distracting. She also "corrected" my pronunciation of "cache." I use the long "a" and she pronounced it like "cash." In turn, I corrected an advertisement in which she ended a sentence with "with," leading to an unpleasant discussion over colloquialism vs. regional dialect. Apparently, I am one who does not respond well to unwarranted corrections of my speech. Needless to say, I didn't work there long. -
-
Re: Forte as fort or for-tay
Sun, March 18, 2007 - 4:57 AMHeather - don't you mean "cachet"? "Cache" just means hide in French (and pronunciation depends upon the tense - root verb is cacher). "Cachet" - also French in origin - had something to do with a seal on important papers or something I think....so hence the association with something having "cachet". It's reasonable to assume that "cachet" is related to "caché" - as in papers hidden from the eyes of others because they're sealed and hidden from prying eyes. -
-
Re: Forte as fort or for-tay
Sun, March 18, 2007 - 4:58 AMOh, and sorry about the "correction"! No offense meant :)
-
-
-
Re: Forte as fort or for-tay
Thu, February 8, 2007 - 9:17 AMAh, yes, French / Italian wars!
I know so very few people who use the French "forte" pronunciation. When I use it, I tend to really stress the French pronunciation, just to avoid what you're talking about. I used to listen to re-broadcasts of comic radio. I remember an exchange between Hermoine Gingold and Groucho Marx. Hermoine: "I'm afraid that's not my forte." Groucho: "I wish Knox was my Fort!".
The Italian pronuciation "fort-ey" comes about IMHO because more people are exposed to music and musical terms, since they're taking piano lessons or participating in school bands and whatnot. It is clearly the predominant pronunciation and has already surpassed the French.
But, soldier on, Kip! I'll keep using the French in the "strength" category, thinking of you!
Craig in Arcata -
-
Re: Forte as fort or for-tay
Fri, February 9, 2007 - 6:20 AMAh, I learned something new today! So, the fort-ay pronunciation is the Italian version and, therefore, not in error? That might help with my personal angst on the subject. Forte away! -
-
Re: Forte as fort or for-tay
Fri, February 9, 2007 - 7:44 AMno, it *is* in error, if what you mean to say is "he is STRONG in this field". it is NOT in error if what you mean to say is that he's playing his music style loudly.
but again, i only worry about this among other people who enjoy nit picking language cause we are bored. I'm find with "got milk" 99.999% of the time. ;-) -
-
Re: Forte as fort or for-tay
Mon, February 12, 2007 - 10:52 AMAccording to dictionary.com (my preferred reference), for-te is now an accepted pronounciation.
—Pronunciation note: In the sense of a person's strong point (He draws well, but sculpture is his forte), the older and historical pronunciation of forte is the one-syllable "fawrt" or "fohrt". The word is derived from the French word fort "strong." A two-syllable pronunciation fawr-tey is increasingly heard, especially from younger educated speakers, perhaps owing to confusion with the musical term forte, pronounced in English as fawr-tey and in Italian as fawr-te. Both the one- and two-syllable pronunciations of forte are now considered standard.
So it has become a case of the language mutating. It does irk me a bit when, as in this case, enough people were getting it wrong that the definition was changed so they would be correct. I'm also not one to stick with tradition for its own sake, so I'd say "for-te" just to be understood then go off on a tangent about majority rule not always being right. ;)
-
-
-
-
Re: Forte as fort or for-tay
Fri, February 9, 2007 - 1:51 AMI'm of the simile to myself school when I hear the prevalent pronunciation - lol. I admit, sadly, that I avoid its use in speech, not wanting to be controversial over such a minor (in most cases) point.
-
-
Re: Forte as fort or for-tay
Sun, March 18, 2007 - 5:00 AMJohn - well doesn't it all depend on whether one's intention is to use language as a tool to communicate or as a sword to smite down the inferiorly literate? ;) Language IS a living thing - especially at its best when it's being used creatively :) -
-
Re: Forte as fort or for-tay
Sat, March 24, 2007 - 12:23 AMIsn't "Forte" so over used now as to have become plebeian and jejune; a word to be avoided when one endeavors to create truly scintillating predications.
(pulled out the old "Vocab for College" on that one)
-
-
-
Re: Forte as fort or for-tay
Sat, March 24, 2007 - 8:05 AMI'd like to weigh in as a Francophone and professional translator and terminologist. The English "Italian" pronunciation of forte is probably the correct and original one. The use of "fort" as a noun or more properly "point fort" (strong suit) in French to mean "strong point or aspect" only dates back to the early XVIIIth century (Voltaire among others) and its origin is confusing. But we also know that in a card-playing context, the English expression "strong suit", the Italian expression "forte" and the French expression "fort" all precede the French literary use of "fort" as an abstract noun meaning "strong point or aspect". It is therefore probable that continent-touring Englishmen imported the Italian card-playing forte rather than the equivalent French expression, if only because it is easier to pronounce. It cannot be proven whether the Italians borrowed the expression from the French, but as the French borrowed almost all civilized pursuits, except ballet, from the Italians, this is highly doubtful.
The spelling is another clue. Although many atrocities have been committed in borrowing French expressions to incorporate them into English, it is probable that no Englishman in his right mind would have thought that the "forte" spelling was be an acceptable approximation of the French pronunciation of "fort". As in the word repartee, whose English spelling was concocted to reproduce the French sound of "repartie" (rhymes with settee), spelling alterations usually have as a goal to facilitate the pronunciation of the original word. The fact that some half-cultured English Yahoo decided to add an acute accent to the next-to-last letter of the word repartee (repartée) to create an unconscionable abomination that has survived to this day is neither here nor there and deserves another discussion. -
-
Re: Forte as fort or for-tay
Sat, March 24, 2007 - 8:38 AMI sould add that the French pronunciation of the Fench word "fort" is different from the English. It sounds like "fâr" (no "t" sound). -
-
Re: Forte as fort or for-tay
Sat, March 24, 2007 - 8:58 AMI'm sorry for the three posts in a row but I can't seem to find the "edit" button in this forum. I suspect there is none.
It just dawned on me that if most of you people have been pronouncing the English word "forte" to sound like the English word "fort" all those years, you have not only made yourself ridiculous to cultured English-speakers but also contemptible to all bilingual Francophones. It's about time Kip asked this question... :)
-
Re: Forte as fort or for-tay
Sun, March 25, 2007 - 7:06 AMTo make a long story short:
1. Italians have been saying "Non è il mio forte" (This is not my strong suit) for at least 400 years. There was an international romantic hit song of 1990 called "Il pianoforte non è il mio forte" (Piano-playing is not my strong suit). The French have been saying "Ce n'est pas mon fort" for at least as long. Both languages have used the word in naval construction (the wide part of a ship), building construction (the more solid part of the edifice) and fencing (the strong part of a blade) for roughly the same time. Both expressions were used in card-playing for God knows how long. This noun turned abstract in the XVIIIth century in both languages and rougly at the same time (that we can tell).
2. The English word "forte" is not spelled like the French word "fort".
3. The English word "forte" does not sound - whichever way you pronounce it - like the French (masculine, no "e") word "fort" (whose "t" is silent).
4. The English word "forte" happens to be spelled like the Italian word "forte".
5. It therefore follows that the English word "forte" should sound like the Italian word "forte".
Any questions?
-
-
Re: Forte as fort or for-tay
Sun, March 25, 2007 - 7:46 AMthank you -- i'm down with it and glad that it matches how i've been "pronunciating" it all along.
(I just wanted to say "pronunciate.")
(Reminds me of Willem Defoe in i-forget-what-movie saying "symbology.")
-
Re: Forte as fort or for-tay
Sun, April 12, 2009 - 7:39 PMClassic folk etymology. You've posted a lot of 'X would never have done Y' supposition, but none of it is attested. Given that the English have pretty regularly mangled both spelling and pronunciation of borrowed words for centuries, I find your discussion interesting but not convincing, particularly to the extent that it rests on the assumption that English speakers would be unlikely to pronounce the t that is silent in French. Though dictionaries make mistakes all the time, unless you have some peer-reviewed work to offer in support, I'm inclined to go with the OED and Webster's on this one. -
-
Re: Forte as fort or for-tay
Mon, April 13, 2009 - 6:22 AMTaking the discussion in the opposite direction...
How do you pronounce "foible" (a weakness or shortcoming)? Even my New Oxford American Dictionary gives only (phonetically, since I can't reproduce the actual symbols) "FOY-bul", but the original French would be closer to "FWAH-bl", with one of those half-swallowed "L"s, wouldn't it? Of course, no one would understand what you were talking about if you said "FWAH-bl", so what would be the point? I think there comes a tipping point where this sort of thing stops being about correcting misconceptions and becomes just showing off. Getting it right is fine, but if no one understands, what have you accomplished?
-
-
-
-