I was just reading a text that included a phrase something like this... The matter is in significant degree....
I know what the author meant, but I cannot help hearing in my mind "insignificant" rather than "in significant."
And to think it was Carl Sagan of all people! I'm reading Dragons of Eden, a fascinating exploration of the evolution of the brain.
I know what the author meant, but I cannot help hearing in my mind "insignificant" rather than "in significant."
And to think it was Carl Sagan of all people! I'm reading Dragons of Eden, a fascinating exploration of the evolution of the brain.
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Re: awkward phrasing
Fri, November 16, 2007 - 6:20 AMThe awkwardness is not in his use or phrasing, but in the general deterioration of literacy and correct understanding of syntax, semantic, and structure. Lack of proficiency in today's society is, pardon the pun, prolific. Sagan was a fellow of exquisite linguistic skill and it is telling that less than thirty years have passed and such as this is now rather common.
My apologies, I realize that will read very [insert derogatory adjective here]. It is not intended so. -
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Re: awkward phrasing
Fri, November 16, 2007 - 8:01 AMI'm not taking it as derogatory. I know what you mean, but I still beg to differ. As much as I love reading Sagan, that was an odd choice of word order. Certain words simply do not work well together. I would think anyone upon reading a sentence that says "in significant" would naturally slide them together to imply "insignificant." Heck, those who are less educated, literate, or proficient with the English language might not even notice.
I just wish he would have rearranged the order or choose different words. As my momma always said, "If it doesn't sound right, throw it out and rephrase!" -
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Re: awkward phrasing
Fri, November 16, 2007 - 8:26 AMI'm with Heather on this one, especially since we live now in an age of audiobooks. (That's not as novel as it sounds, though: for generations, most people who *heard* stories could not themselves *read* them.)
Part of clear writing lies in appreciating how one might be misunderstood. Philosophers are bound to consider possible misunderstandings of their arguments; writers in general should consider the possible misreadings their prose may invite. -
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Re: awkward phrasing
Fri, November 16, 2007 - 9:46 AM"writers in general should consider the possible misreadings their prose may invite." And often a misreading is exactly what the author had in mind ;)
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Re: awkward phrasing
Fri, November 16, 2007 - 2:04 PMit is both figuratively and literally impossible to anticipate all variants of mis-comprehension. the expectation that because literacy has deteriorated over time, one should, themselves, as writers, deteriorate is, frankly, ludicrous.
(i love commas!)
it is one thing to tailor your writing to your audience, quite another to support or encourage functional illiteracy.
i find it ironic that people now seem to expect this. get a dictionary. care enough about communication to understand proper structure. everyone wins. :) -
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Deterioration of literacy?
Fri, November 16, 2007 - 4:46 PMWow Fenix. As long as we're discussing literacy, just for starters, could you explain the difference between figurative and literal impossibility in your first paragraph? I am literally frustrated with the literally mind-boggling over-use of the word "literally" in American English, literally.
I do find interesting the assertion that literacy is declining over time. I'm not arguing that this is either true or not true...I've just never thought about it from an empirical standpoint. How would you substantiate this? Is it possible that literacy is, in fact, more accessible to the masses? And if literacy is less associated with the academic elite, could this not lead to the misconception that literacy has eroded? On what do you base your perception? -
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Re: Deterioration of literacy?
Tue, November 20, 2007 - 3:29 PMyou can judge the intended demographics of books published in years past...
like, children's books our high schooler's struggle with -- huck finn, etc...
yes the degradation of kids' vocabulary has been documented against prior generations and years,
and yes it is vastly declining...
so there will be LOTS of stupid people
and few with articulate function...
to tell the classes apart when we become a feudal society...
(zeitgeistmovie.com, anyone?:)
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Re: Deterioration of literacy?
Wed, November 21, 2007 - 11:22 AMIn traditional analysis, words in literal expressions denote what they mean according to common or dictionary usage, while words in figurative expressions connote additional layers of meaning. Thus, figuratively impossible refers to figurative expression and literally impossible refers to literal expression.
Perhaps your frustration rises from your unwillingness to consider the sentence in more than one possible context before becoming frustrated? Just a thought.
As to the rest, the fastest way to provide an empirical look at it is to review the historical shifts in academic instruction. Once upon a time, if one were writing to a "technical audience", one was instructed to write at an 11th to 12th grade level. If one were writing to a non-technical audience, one was instructed to write at an 9th to 10th grade level.
Today, it is commonly taught that if one is writing to a technical audience, one should write to the 9th to 10th grade level and, if to a non-technical audience, one should write to the 7th to 9th grade level.
It seems pretty straightforward and obvious to me, not so much a matter of perception at all.
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Re: awkward phrasing
Fri, November 16, 2007 - 5:33 PMI clearly didn't anticipate your mis-comprehension of my reply! -
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Re: awkward phrasing
Wed, November 21, 2007 - 11:26 AMHm. I am of the mind that I did not mis-comprehend it at all, rather, I ignored the ability of the writer to use the possibility as a tool, and instead spoke about how it is impossible to provide for all possible misreadings. :)
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Re: awkward phrasing
Sun, November 25, 2007 - 1:17 AMThank you for not posting "Here, here," as I have seen in other contexts. -
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Re: awkward phrasing
Sun, November 25, 2007 - 1:29 AM
Not likely. Check the name of the tribe, Lex. :oP
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Re: awkward phrasing
Sat, November 17, 2007 - 12:47 PMAm I the only person who "hears" the words when I'm reading? And, no, I don't read out loud, heehee!
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Re: awkward phrasing
Sat, November 17, 2007 - 7:40 PMWhen I took copyediting as part of my Master's program at NYU, my professor had a great one-liner . . . that copyeditors need to have dirty minds. That is, that the sort of person who is always seeing double entendres and possible other meanings for things will be a better editor, because he or she will catch these sorts of things. I've found this with bad line breaks that are techically correct, but cause the eye to hiccup . . . such as
fig- urines
the- rapist
mans- laughter
etc.
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Re: awkward phrasing
Sun, November 25, 2007 - 10:51 AMJosh - "writers in general should consider the possible misreadings their prose may invite."
Of course, though when one is writing a text the possible misreadings aren't always apparent. It's really editors that should be catching these kinds of things ;-)
Heather - Sometimes I hear the words when I'm reading, sometimes I don't. it depends on whether I'm savoring a text or not usually. And, like you, I've on occasion stumbled on correct but suggestive pairings of words :-)
Written text, including the flow and rhythm as noted through punctuation, is "musical" or based upon how text will "sound" when read. Punctuation essentially serves to mimic the cadence of spoken language, so any writer that's not paying attention to how something will sound as well as how it will read visually is missing an important facet of written language. -
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Re: awkward phrasing
Sun, November 25, 2007 - 11:09 AM>>>>>>>>Josh - "writers in general should consider the possible misreadings their prose may invite."
Of course, though when one is writing a text the possible misreadings aren't always apparent. It's really editors that should be catching these kinds of things ;-) <<<<<<
I agree, Fifi, that editors are to watch for such things, though I think writers should be aware of them too. -
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Re: awkward phrasing
Sun, November 25, 2007 - 11:12 AMJosh - "I think writers should be aware of them too."
Of course! :-)
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Re: awkward phrasing
Sun, November 25, 2007 - 12:45 PMPunctuation serves to clarify the meaning of a series of words, ordering them. Punctuation may, in some instances, also mimic the cadence of spoken language; however, as someone who is constantly deleting from written text the virtual commas that are present in speech but serve no grammatic purpose whatsoever in written text, I heartily disagree with you.
I edit writing by people who punctuate as they speak, and it has very little to do with how it should be written. Unless, of course, you are writing a script. And that's a whole 'nother subject. -
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Re: awkward phrasing
Sun, November 25, 2007 - 1:02 PMDeborah - Fair enough, I appreciate you sharing your opinion. Certainly punctuation doesn't always follow how one would speak and there are lots rules that have little to do with spoken language (often being based upon archaic technologies and traditions, as is the case with much punctuation used in American English in particular). That said, my understanding is that the use of punctuation did evolve from spoken language and that there's an intrinsic connection between spoken and written language.
Certainly the intent of punctuation is to clarify meaning, this doesn't negate the reality that some rules actually confuse meaning or don't make a great deal of sense when considered on a practical level in terms of clarifying meaning. Anyone who works as an editor, or corrects papers or is involved in similar activities, will have their own pet peeves about common errors or have stylistic preferences. I take it that you take particular issue with the overly liberal use of commas :-)
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Re: awkward phrasing
Sun, November 25, 2007 - 2:14 PMSpeaking of punctuation, does anyone else have fun reading Kerouc? I love his writing, but the lack of punctuation has me holding my breath for pages on end. I have to consciously stop myself and breathe or I fear I'll pass out. Heehee.
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Re: awkward phrasing
Tue, November 20, 2007 - 3:26 PMi think it's a literacy issue among readers... but the writer could have helped:
The matter is, in significant degree, [an issue surrounding x rather than y, as initially supposed]....
Commas are great. -
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Re: awkward phrasing
Wed, November 21, 2007 - 12:58 AMWhat sounds strange to my ears is the 'in significant', which tends to blur into 'insignificant', or causes the reader to mark an awkward pause. I would have written 'to a significant degree', or 'in a significant fashion', separating the 'in' and 'significant' by the disambiguating 'a'.
Hell, why not just 'The matter is, largely, [...]' ? 'in significant degree' is just bloat.
I don't believe that Sagan intended the possible ambiguity. Copy-editors, you with a finely tuned ear for language, how often do you take Carl's aside and tell them that their prose is drifting? -
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Re: awkward phrasing
Wed, November 21, 2007 - 7:50 AMJust to be clear, I didn't intend to imply that it was Mr. Sagan's intention to mislead, rather that sometimes a play on words can be fun...
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